This Thanksgiving, Nate and I found ourselves seated at the children’s table.
This is a great idea for Nate. This is a bad idea for anyone in the room who would prefer to enjoy dinner without hearing a resounding chorus of the Spongebob Squarepants theme song as the turkey is served.
Nate was teasing a sweet little five year-old, our host’s goddaughter, about something or other, when she suddenly folded her arms across her chest, jutted out her lower lip, and exclaimed,
You said something mean to me! You’re not going to heaven!
Now of all the people to say this to.
I was worried that Nate would respond by going off on a rant to a preschooler about heaven being a fabrication of man, created as part of a master plan from corrupt religious institutions to usurp power from the masses blah blah blah…but he showed remarkable restraint. In fact, it was me who demolished the awkward pause in the room with a (equally awkward) comment about how, since they were Catholic, at least we could say we were sorry before we die and then all will be forgiven. The little girl’s mom laughed. Her aunt, not so much. But then, she was still sore with me for my earlier Bush joke. A Bush fan in the New York metro area! Mea culpa – I didn’t know such a thing existed.
I hadn’t thought much about the incident again until yesterday, when I read Julie’s thought-provoking post at the Imperfect Parent about using the expression “oh my God” in front of children who have been told that this is a biblical violation. And I started wondering about religion and morality in children.
(Now in the spirit of disclosure: I’m not entirely reverent when it comes to institutional religion. I’m not quite as antagonistic as my sigOth, but I did do a little riff here a few months back on evangelical ice cream truck drivers that might not sit well with some of my more devout Mormon-in-laws. Extreme beliefs in any form make me uncomfortable, and I admit I include a five year old’s ability to quote bible verses in that category.)
Based on this little girl’s remark, I’m wondering whether the concept of hell–or at least not going to heaven–is used by religious school teachers as sort of an eternal naughty chair, a threat to keep kids in check: Be nice to your sister or you won’t go to heaven. Stop picking your nose or you won’t go to heaven. Scratch mommy’s back or you won’t go to heaven.
It certainly seems an easier way to parent than, say, telling your kid he won’t go to his Little League World Series. Make good on that threat and he hates you. But who can he hate if you tell him he won’t enter the pearly gates in 2096? God? St Peter? The Lucky Charms guy?
Then I started to think about (and I know, I’m getting on a bit of a slippery slope here) whether there’s actually any downside in instilling a moral code in children that’s based on eternal reward and punishment. Isn’t it enough to be good for goodness sake? Can’t children learn to be kind, be responsible, be charitable, because It’s the Right Thing To Do, and not just because when you die you’ll get to play with kittens and eat ice cream all day?
Don’t we have faith enough in our own inner moral compasses–and in those of our children?
Hm.
I’d like some other perspectives on this.
73 shards of brilliance… read them below or add one
I prefer “You know. Santa is watching you and making lists right now, so you better be good.”But sometimes, Hell would sure come in handy…
Good post. We don’t use an “eternal reward and punishment” on the kids. However, the hubster and I frequently note when we do things that are going to send us to hell, because, well, it’s fun. I am not religious. But I do think I am a good person and have a good idea of right and wrong (and might be right, might be wrong, might be OK, etc). I believe you can rely on an inner moral compass and instill goodness that way. When I think about how I want to raise my children and instill “right” and “wrong” in them – I want them to consider the impact of their actions and words on others. I want them to have empathy. I want them to be able to put themselves in another shoes. So instead of telling them they’re going to hell for hitting their friend or that they will go to heaven if they are nice to people, we talk about why it hurts someone’s feelings to do such and such or how good it would make someone feel if we did such and such.But I have stooped low enough to bribe with chocolate from time to time. Oh, and we use “Santa” at this time of year too. Sometimes the inner moral compass thing doesn’t work with tantrums in the restaurant or store.
I am forever telling my kids that they need to do the right thing simply because it IS the right thing! No cookie, no sticker, no prize. Knowing that you have enough character and backbone to do the right thing when it’s easier to do wrong is the only reward there is. It’ll last you a lifetime.Thanks for another great post!
We try to focus on the love of God rather than the wrath of God. S/he wants us to treat people well because it is the right thing to do and that we must do our best to be Christ-like even though we are only human. My DH and I were raised Catholic, but are attending an Episcopal church with our boys. We find the whole atmosphere to be more forgiving, less fearsome. Although we have discussed heaven with our 5yo because he has lost a dog and a great-grandmother (yes, pets get into heaven in our house), but we have not talked about hell and (having doubts about the whole thing), we don’t intend to start.
That is exactly the driving philosophy that my father used with us: be good for being good’s sake. A lapsed Catholic, he preached that we ought to do the right thing not out of fear of eternal damnation but out of a firm knowledge of what is right and wrong.I’d like to think it worked a charm on us, we all seem to be pretty “Do unto others” types. And it drives me nuts when some fundy on a plane or a poolside or wherever tries to tell me that the problem with abandoning Christian teachings in the classroom is that children will have no idea of right and wrong. Reaaallllly? There’s only one narrow way to teach that?Your little tablemate’s comment was about right for a rules-loving 5 year old but I shudder to think how easily that becomes simplistic, damning judgementalism a little further out. Hopefully her parents step in now and again to massage that impulse out, hopefully they don’t actually encourage her to think so simplisticallyAs though G-d has time to fret about an idle comment over Thanksgiving dinner…
I was raised with the good old “fear o’ god” in me and it really didn’t do much for me. A belief in a higher (or even lower) authority, I do not have. Some atheist once said that teaching religion to children is a form of child abuse. While that’s extreme in every sense of the word, I’m gonna let my little one figure out on her own if she believes in any god. Because having it introduced early on didn’t work for me and hasn’t seemed to help the world all that much, either.
I really have no deep insight because I’m not religious and religion isn’t really a big thing in our household. My husband’s family is Catholic, and while not all of them are practising, it’s important to them, so I try hard not to say “Jesus H. Christ!” when I get mad in front of them. I’ve also really tried to watch myself around my children…apparently I say that more than I say the F-word. *sigh* I’m battin’ a thousand over here.
i could write for hours on this…i was raised under such religous oppression – all things god were right, everything else was bad. i was everything else all the time. i heaped so much guilt into my 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, 17 year old body that i am surprised i still stand upright.YES. good because good is good, not because you burn in hell otherwise.
Nice thought provoking post. My family and I are going through a non-organized religion phase right now. We tried the only Jewish Temple within a 30 mile radius, I am Jewish, my husband not, and found we didn’t have anything in commom with any other members. I agree with crankmama, Santa is a good way to threaten your children into behaving. Not that it works.
We are a be good because you reap what you sow type of family. Being ‘bad’ carries with it no mortal fear for eternal damnation, just tjh immediate consequences of my dissaproval (and I am a marshmallow so….). My biggirl went thru a God and Jesus phase that left us scrambling for any info we could find (we are ignorant as the day we were born). She used to always tell me not to use the lords name in vain, and while she went thru this phase, i tried to respect it.
I have to preface my comment by saying I believe on the eighth day man created God. Now, my atheism aside, I think it’s very sad when people who are insecure in their own faiths use their children as pawns to try and demonstrate the family piety.And regarding the moral compass, do we not all hold in higher regard the person who does good deeds out of the kindness of his heart as opposed to the person who does the deed because he’s going to earn more heaven points? In that case, is the deed even good any more?I don’t mean to get all John Lennon or Rodney King on y’all’s asses but what would the world be like if no one had a concept of heaven? Could it be that we might actually all get along?I wouldn’t go so far as to say teaching a child religion is achild abuse, but I would say that threatening a child with <>Now, now, that makes the Baby Jesus Cry <> or <> God doesn’t like that<> is God abuse.
I was not allowed to say “oh my God”. I also once got a spanking for saying “Jesus!” Even though I tried to explain to my parents that I wasn’t saying “Jesus” but, rather “Geezus”. (I didn’t know it was “Jesus!” I swear!) The phrase “you’ll go to hell for that” was thrown around all of the time and to this day, I believe that unless I repent of my sins, I am going to burn in hell. And yet, I do not repent, so do I really, truly believe it? Because would I continue to “live in sin” if I believed it?(and by “live in sin” I mean “drink Devil Water and celebrate halloween!) My parents tell me that I’m harming my children by not taking them to church because they have no “moral compass.” Is the life and lessons that we teach our children NOT a moral compass? Is teaching children to be responsible, kind, loving, respectful human beings not good enough?Oh my God, what was the question again? I get so worked up when it comes to this issue, that I lose all ability to think clearly and focus. ACK!
Oh Liz, I know we won’t agree on this because I’m one of those “evil” Republican, conservative, Catholics. My religion is important to me. I don’t use it as a weapon against my husband or children or friends or acquaintances by instructing them to believe they are going to hell for doing something wrong.I’m one of the few in this day and age who believes in God. I raise my son as Catholic. I go to church every Sunday. I am a catechist. I enjoy all of it.While you say that you are uncomfortable with “extreme” religious beliefs, I’d like to know what you define as extreme?If it offends you to witness another’s belief or testimony of their faith, and you consider it extreme, imagine how much it offends that person to see your lack of belief or judgment against it. They may find you just as extreme.
Kevin! I wasn’t going to comment unti l saw yours. Not that I wasn’t inspired, just that it’s pretty much all here.>all John Lennon or Rodney King on ya’ll asses, but…< , and then the 'God abuse,' comment. Dude, love itMommy 101: do not, i repeat, do NOT move to area code 45255!
WOW such great comments!Bub and Pie: I think you nailed it. “Children are natural dogmatists” – awesome.Bernal Girl: That’s exactly what bothered me – whether the black and white, heaven/hell thing becomes condemnation in a few year’s time. Dana: Your question is fair enough. My definition of extremes could be a post unto itself, but I’ll just say I always believed that faith is a private thing. Something between you and your God. Therefore prostelytizing, preaching, evanglism in any form freaks me out. Certainly judgment, including someone telling me I’m going to hell for any reason. I’m not even comfortable with people wearing religious symbols on chains around their necks, to be honest. I certainly don’t like to be approached by the JHs in my neighborhood, nor the Hassidim on the subway who ask about my faith. It’s an imposition and no one’s business. Now do I have an issue with joining a family for dinner who says grace? Of course not. I respect the rights of the devout. But when people start quoting biblical verses at me as some sort of established fact or truth- that’s when I get all squirmy.I never said however that I have a lack of belief in God (in some form or another). Just a lack of belief on imposing it on others. Which is why you may notice, whenever I write about religion I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I’m generally asking questions. I will impose my musical tastes on others any chance I get, however. Swing by my place sometime – I have a great 80s mix that’s dying to be heard.
Like most ideas, schools of thought, faiths, whatever, there are thoughtful applications and there are simplicistic applications. You know the types: those who cannot articulate their feelings and thoughts tend to bully. Dogma is great for that. But for those who really are contemplative and are looking for meaning, I think religion fills that need. I don’t think believing in something makes you nice or smart or deep. Those qualities need to come from somewhere else, first. So, yeah, I believe we need to be good for goodness sake.
Cheese and crackers and omgg (that’s “Oh my goodness gracious”), it’s all crap (said with the Scottish accent Mike Meyers used to use on SNL – with a rolling rrrr).People are big fat self-righteous hypocrites (except me – I’m perfect). I wish they’d leave h-e-double hockey sticks out of it, for chrissakes!
I agree with you, that teaching children to be good for goodness’ sake is its own reward, and that heaven and hell aren’t a punishment for good behavior to be meted out by people who judge us to be worthy or not. If you believe in that sort of thing, then it’s up to no mortal being to judge us in the first place. If you don’t believe in that sort of thing, then it makes no sense that another person could make that kind of pronouncement. Who are we to know what your chosen deity has up his/her sleeve? How presumptuous of us!In short, it makes no sense no matter what you believe. But, if you are religious then it is especially wrong to wield heaven and hell as if you know what God – or your chosen deity – would decide to do with another person. That is their business, anyway, which religion is supposed to be, i.e. a private, personal matter.Amen.
When I was in the first grade (I’m a preacher’s kid) I told another little girl who cut inline in front of me that my daddy was going to send her to hell. There is no one here but I am still blushing furiously! I was in first grade and I didn’t know what I was tlaking about- I was just really angry- but what I remember very clearly was the look on the girls face. She didn’t say anything but her face was completely horrified. That’s not the right word, but I don’t know if I can describe it well enough to do it justice. Suffice it to say that I am blushing- even at 27 when she did not tell on me and I did not recieve any punishment. As an adult I recognize that I learned a really important lesson at a very young age: hell isn’t something you should threaten with. The religious beliefs of children are very tender and innocent and while the concept of death is somewhat unimaginable, eternal torture is (maybe) not as abstract. I might have used it to lash out, but I (more or less) believed what I was saying at the time and she knew I did. I actually have a friend who uses this same line. I love him to death, but I think he’s seriously warping his kid’s view of religion and of themselves. Sorry, but the Bible never says: “Thou shalt not lose thy temper or thou wilt go directly to Hell (do not pass go, do not colect $100)!
Been there, done that. Having been raised in a fundamentalist church, I speak from experience when I say that stuff is too abstract for kids to really get at that age and using scare tactics i.e. the reward or punishment of heaven or hell on an older child doesn’t work either. I think it’s just lazy parenting to use religious tenants to try to get kids to behave and obviously if a five year old is doling out “no heaven for you” punishments, she’s heard the same thing a time or two. That just doesn’t seem right to me, but perhaps my agnostic ass isn’t going to heaven either ;o)
That part where you say that extreme views on religion make you uncomfortable — even if its a 5-year-old and she’s spewing bible verses. YES! Thanks for saying that.We aren’t religious people, but the hubs and I try to impart on our son that one should strive to be a “good” person and live a life of compassion, tolerance, gratitude and goodwill just because. If there’s a heaven, well then bonus!
Shocking, but my two girls and I go to ‘church.’ (But not my agnostic husband, who is going to hell.)I put church in quotes because, while Christian based, really strives to be inter-faith. Once a month a rabbi from a neighboring synagogue gives the sermon, and among the congregation are several of Jewish, Hindu and Buddhist faiths.I don’t consider myself a religious person, although I was raised going to Sunday school (okay, mostly on holidays, when there was a good chance of getting a chocolate of some kind – Santa, Easter bunny) Unlike a lot of people I have good memories of it. I wanted to give something to my kids to help them build the basis of a spiritual life, which is important to me. Not necessarily religious, but spiritual.I chose this church because its lack of fire-and-brimstone, conservative style. My kids do community service projects there, like making cards for orphanages in Russia and participating in a community kitchen. My girls know that they are free to choose to believe or not, and every mention of God, Buddha or any religious deity in our household is followed by, “…which SOME people believe in.” But there is no ‘Be good or you won’t go to heaven’ teaching, and I would never think to use it, although I’m thinking it would be nice to have something to fall back on when my empty threats don’t work. ‘Be good or no more Nintendo’ just doesn’t have that dire ring to it.(Oh my – was that the longest freakin comment ever or what? I guess that’s what reading blogs on a lazy Saturday afternoon will do. Sorry.)
Interesting post. I am kinda sorta Catholic, but I would never tell anybody (certainly not my own kids!) that they won’t go to heaven. I’m sure you could care less, but it is Catholic teaching actually that NO ONE ever has the ability to judge who will or won’t go to heaven. We can’t even say with certainty that serial killers, suicide bombers, etc. are not in heaven, so surely we can’t say people who tease small children aren’t!Anyway, all that aside, my husband is similar in thinking on this to Nate and when I insisted that I wanted to baptize our kids, he said, “I don’t understand why we can’t just teach them to be good people without using a bunch of fairy tales…”And of course, we can. He’s a very good and moral person (MUCH better than me, in fact!!!) and grew up in an atheist home. I grew up in a non-religious though not really atheist (I don’t think my parents give a rip one way or the other…) and my family are good people…Anyway, did not answer your question in any way shape or form, but yes, I do think you’re right. Whether people are religious or not it’s just good policy to refrain from using the phrase, “you’ll go to hell…”Unless we’re talking about George Bush maybe!